OOQ.02.04.GraceePurcell.
Elena: Welcome to Out of Queeriosity. Consider us your field guide for Queer Pride. You will hear from the best of the best in terms of queer business leaders, queer relationship experts, the activist working to protect us all and everyday LGBTQ plus people, but have figured a few things out so you don't have to.
Out of Queeriosity is brought to you by the Pride and Joy Foundation. Let's do this.
Welcome back to Out of Queeriosity, the podcast for the Pride and Joy Foundation. I am your host, Elena Joy pronouns she/her. Pride and Joy Foundation is a nonprofit whose mission is to prevent suicide and homelessness in the LGBTQ plus community. One way we do that is by amplifying the voices of the people on the front lines, opening minds and hearts, and moving people along that allyship spectrum.
Our guest today, Gracee Purcell, she /her, is doing that in a powerful way, and she is only 19 years old. Gracee is the president of a nonprofit called RaYnbow Collective. They provide support for lgbtq plus students at the Mormon School in Provo, Utah. As you may know, any student or employee at Brigham Young University that is caught committing homosexual behavior can be kicked out or fired.
The consequence of living your truth in that environment are very, very real. We discussed Gracee's coming out story with her parents, her decision to attend B Y U. Her activism on campus and even her special love for raising guide dogs fam, I'll be straight up with you. This was a way more intense interview for me than I anticipated.
As many of you know, I was a believing member of the Mormon Church for several decades and even pursued conversion therapy in order to stay that way. This is the first [00:02:00] time I've interviewed a believing queer Mormon. I truly hope that I was able to show the love and support that I wanted to for this amazing young woman.
All right. All right. Before I give any more away, let's do this. Welcome to this episode of Out of Queeriosity. I am here with Gracee Purell. Did I say that correctly? Yep, that's it. Awesome. Excellent. So glad you were here with us today, Gracee. I met over social media, so I did not go to by U, but my ex-husband, I put him through his whole bachelor's and master's there, as well as I now have two kiddos that are students at BYU.
So I'm very much still tied to the university. When I was there putting my husband through his degrees, I was working for the computer science department, so I was a staff member there. Yeah, I got to know a lot of the grad students and got to know how like the colleges work, all that kinda good stuff. So that was fun.
But I also got [00:03:00] it from the staff perspective of like the Tuesday devotionals and. Every year when we'd have our budgetary meetings, we would talk about how all the funds are ti and how special that is. And yeah, there's a lot of interesting nuance that goes into B byu. So with that background, you are a sophomore, is this your second year at B Y U?
So this is actually my first year, but I'm a, it's kinda, I got my associate's degree in high school, so technically in credits I'm a junior. Got it. Perfect. Mm-hmm. Now I understand. And what area are you from? Where, where did you come to Provo, Utah from? Um, I lived right outside of Boise, Idaho. Oh, fun. And did you know growing up that like b byu, that's where you wanted to go?
Or was it like one of many options? What were your thoughts there? It was, so neither of my parents went to BYU, which is actually really crazy cuz most people have like some sort of tie to it. But like, no, like my parents went to completely [00:04:00] different schools and I never wanted to go to B BYU cuz I. I kind of was always like, oh, they're kind of like stuck up and they're very Mormon.
And I was like, that's not me. So I actually never wanted to go there and I had like, I applied to tons of other schools, um, but ultimately just randomly decided to apply as a transfer student and now I'm here. Now you are there. So let's back up a little bit before that because I remember in another interview that I read about you, you had come out not at home with your friends and not at college with your friends.
Where were you when you kind of really had that first like, I'm gonna be vulnerable and share my truths with the world? Yeah, so I was actually in Mexico in a city called ito, it's Central Mexico. It's like three hours from Mexico City. And I was teaching English through a volunteer program. So I was with a bunch of strangers that I'd never met before and we were just teaching English part-time and then traveling the rest.
Wow. And was this [00:05:00] like more of a Mormon group or was It had nothing to do with the Mormon church. So it's based on a provost. So a lot of people who do go into this program are, my group was pretty split. We had, so there was eight of us at the beginning and four of us were members, three were xmo and one had never had any experience with the church.
Got it. Okay. So I'm trying to be mindful that you and I are gonna use a lot of like our vocabulary. Yes. Sorry. No, no, no. It's so funny because I always get called on it as well. So we're gonna use the phrase XMO a lot in this, in this episode, which stands for Ex Mormon. So that's typically someone who has started to deconstruct their faith and, and doesn't necessarily identify as a Mormon anymore.
They identify as an ex-Mormon. So let's pose that question to you, Gracee. How do you identify? I would say a practicing member. Some might say I'm like nuanced, right? Or expansive. Expansive. Okay. [00:06:00] You came out in Mexico Yep. With people you had only known on this trip, is that right? Correct. Yeah. How did it go?
Yeah, so I guess the, the lead up to that is kind of a little bit important to know the context, which is I had planned on coming out to my parents before going to Mexico so that they would have four months to process. And I was like, if it goes really bad, they have four months to just get over it and we'll, we'll be fine by the end.
But I ended up not, I chickened out cuz I was like, I don't wanna ruin my relationship cause I'm, I'm headed to a different country. I'm 18 and I'm like still kind of young. And so I didn't, but I got there and I wanna say no more than six days. I don't know the exact amount. It was my first weekend there and I had just met these people and I was like, we were having one of those like late night talks, right?
It's like one in the morning and you're, and you're talking and everyone's just saying everything that's coming to mind. And so I was like, Like I said something and they were like, what does that mean? And I came out to two of the girls there and I was like, so nervous. I think I just was like, I kind of like [00:07:00] women.
And then I just like sat there. And in hindsight, like I, I'm like glad it worked out for me because six, like six days in is not a long time. And especially that I would be living in, in this, um, like apartment with them. Yeah. For four months we had to do everything together. Like there was no escape. I had no idea how they were gonna react.
I didn't know them at all. So yeah, it was kind of crazy, but it ended up okay. I am so glad to hear that. I'm so glad to hear that ended up. Okay, so before we go any further, let's get an idea of all the ways that you identify. So you came out as a lesbian. Lesbian, okay. And as far as gender identity, you identify.
A woman. Yeah. Assist woman. Just cisgender. Yeah. Okay, got it. Okay. So great. We've clarified now we can move forward. Yes. Okay. That's intense. So basically strangers knew before. Mm-hmm. The people closest to you. And it's so funny because when I get parents that come to our, our pride and enjoy parent [00:08:00] events, they're like, my son came out on TikTok before he talked to me, his mother.
And I have to be like, that felt the safest. You know, you were a really important relationship to come to you with that information is a lot of risk. And so often we're gonna practice those conversations with people where it's not a lot of risk. And that could be strangers on the internet cause we actually don't care what they have to say.
We care a lot about what our mom has to say or our dad. Yeah. And so how did that go with my parents or with like my group? Um, let's go to your parents. Cause it sounded like everything turned out okay in the end with that group. Yes. Um, awesome. And so you came home and, and I went back into the closet because I came home right before Christmas and I was like, I mean, I, I guess I really wanted to let them into that part of my life, especially since it was so good for my mental health to be out.
But oh, [00:09:00] I, it was really important to me that I continued having a good relationship with them. And I was like, I'm not gonna ruin the holidays. I'm not gonna ruin my relationship with my family and I will be living here for the next eight months working. So I kind of was like, what are the risks of coming out versus not coming out?
And, and I kind of like, well, I'll just sit on it. Well wait, it's not any different than the last however many years. Right. But it turns out, once you've come out once, uh, it's really hard to go back and it's, yeah, it's not the same. It's not, I don't know if it's your tolerance is just lower or what, but, um, definitely harder to like, live at home and, and go back.
And what ultimately led me to come out to 'em was I had started an Instagram account to kind of like, I don't know, feel some, feel like I had some sort of community and I got asked to be on Richard Ostlers, uh, listen Learn Love podcast. Yeah. And my cousin, who I had come out to as well in Mexico, she was like, you have to, you have to tell your parents [00:10:00] before you record this.
Because if you come out to 'em later and say, by the way, I have this Instagram, I've recorded a podcast in your home without telling you, then they're going to like, it's gonna be less about like you coming out and more about how you didn't tell them. Like it's going to be super sad. Right. That is a wise cousin.
I'm so glad you had that person in your life. I know. Cause I originally told my parents when I like scheduled it, I told them I was taking an online class, so I. Listen on this day, like you have to make sure everyone is outta the house or super quiet because I have a test and it, it's recorded and like, and that was believable because I did have a test.
Yes. And I was taking a class and they were recorded. Yeah. Um, but that was my plan. I was, that's how I was gonna get away with it, without them knowing. But my cousin, yeah. She was like, you have to tell them or else it's gonna make everything way harder than you want it to be. So yeah. One night I just, like, after I went to mission prep with a friend, I grabbed my mom and I said, I, I just need to tell you something.
And I showed her my Instagram and just was like, by the way, I'm gay. [00:11:00] And definitely like, there were lots of tears on her end. She was, I think devastated is probably a good word for it. Like super, super sad because for context, my family is very, very like, true believing Mormon, like very still in the church.
Active. So a little bit, I think it shook her and she took a second and didn't really say much. She kind of just like, Gave me a hug and then said we needed to tell my dad. And I went and told my dad and he said, thanks for sharing. And then we all went to bed cuz it was like 11 and that was it. Okay. How are you in that moment when you went to bed?
How are you? A little bit freaking out. I felt very like drained. You know when they say like vulnerability hangover, like that's, that's legit. Yeah. Just tired and not sure what was gonna happen next because I still had another six plus months to live with my family. So whatever they decided to do next, [00:12:00] like that was a big deal.
I wanna back up. I agree with you. That was a very big deal. And I wanna back up to you talking about how you realized you needed to speed up the plan of coming out to your family, not just because of the visibility you were gonna have on the podcast, but it sounded like the visibility you created in Mexico for yourself really supported your mental health.
Would you say that's accurate? No, that's huge part of it. I, I don't know how to explain it to somebody except for that when you are hiding something that big and keeping it to yourself, like it just weighs on you and it just feels like you're carrying around like a backpack and, and, and sometimes like it feels physically, but mostly mentally, like that's all you can think about.
That's all you can process. And especially for me because I'm a planner, this rocked my plan right there. What, what do you, what do you do when you know you have to come out, but your, your support system might not [00:13:00] be your support system anymore? And so, yeah, it was super freeing to go to Mexico and have all these people who were like, This isn't a big deal like this.
I'm so glad you were able to tell us this isn't a big deal. We're happy for you. Um, like, and just super like supportive and embraced me with open arms. And then to go back and realize that like I would have to come out all over again and the people that actually were closest to me that I actually did care the most about, like they might have a different reaction than what I'm hoping, right?
Yes, absolutely. Wow. I think for me, the part in visibility that really supports my mental health is I feel seen when I am hiding. That is a huge barrier to my mental wellness. Whereas when I can be seen and feel seen and be accepted as that, like that goes so far into my mental health. Yeah. And yeah, I can imagine that.
So I think there's an aspect to the story that [00:14:00] possibly people outside of Mormonism or another high demand religion might not understand, which is. You have siblings. Yeah. And when you come out to Mormon parents, they are not only thinking about your eternal future, right. And their eternal future with you.
Like we are not a religion that is till death do us part. This goes into the eternities because of the temple and the beliefs there. And when you have older siblings in the family, there is this cultural weight that is on them to set the standard to be the example. And that starts like literally when you are an infant and you're being blessed by your dad in front of your church family, if you're one of the older siblings, the words that are in that blessing are we bless you to be strong and to be a strong example for your younger siblings to come.
Like that is a like embedded into the cultural fabric. Right. And I just started to [00:15:00] realize. That from a parent perspective, because I have these two older kiddos that are trying to figure out things from college and mission and stuff. And what I hadn't realized was that part of the weight that was weighing on them was, what if I make the wrong choice?
And my younger sisters see it and they make a wrong choice too? And I'm like, now of course I'm in my own perspective and I'm like, holy crap honey, you are not their parent. Right? We have parented you in a really dysfunctional way so that you are taking into account that with, no, no, this is your life, this is your life.
Don't live it for your siblings. But that concept is not in the Mormon cultural fabric at all. So what did that come into the aspect of being true with your parents? So much. Like I have specific memories and I remember telling people. And I was like, I want to come out, but I don't want my siblings to think that it's okay.
Like I'm the [00:16:00] example, I'm the oldest of six. Okay. So I've four younger brothers and a little sister. And my littlest, my little sister who's the youngest, she's only five, but at this time she was four. Right? So like lots of like still developing and I was so nervous that I didn't want them to think that just because I did something, it was okay for them.
And I think that that was a lot of like internalized homophobia speaking, right? Like I could say like anyone else could come out and I'd be like, yes, please do it. Like I'd be so like psyched for them, right? But when it was me, I didn't want my siblings to think that, oh, if I thought this way, or if I was directly opposing, like church doctrine and policy, that I didn't want them to think that that was okay.
If that makes sense. The wild thing is it does make sense, but it makes no sense. Does that what I mean? Yeah. Oh my gosh. Okay. So how are you and your parents now? It's definitely been a process. I've been out for about maybe a little over a year and a half now at [00:17:00] this point. I think something that my mom always said and still says is she feels like one of her spiritual gifts is a simple faith.
And when I was younger, I really, really like was like, that is so cool. Because basically what she meant by that was when the church leaders say something, she does it. She doesn't feel the need to question it, she just feels like that's the direction that needs to go. So example she always gave was when the church came back and said, oh, you can only have like one piercing as a woman.
Right. And her piercing one ear piercing. Yeah, one ear piercing. No other piercings. Yeah, exactly. And, and when that came out she was like, okay, what the heck? Yeah. And just like took out all her other piercings and never looked back. And to her like that was the example she would always tell me is like, I didn't have to question it.
It's really easy. My church leaders asked me to, God asked me to, and it's not a big deal, and I moved forward with that. And so I think me coming out like rocked her a little bit because now she had to consider that not [00:18:00] everything was black and white. It wasn't, I follow it or I don't follow it. When the gray area becomes a person, it's harder for people to know what to do, I think.
And I think that's the space we're in, is they're doing their best to educate themselves. Both my parents, they're, they're really cute and they'll like send me podcasts that they've listened to or they've read books. Right? But I think we're still in this space of, none of us know what to do. None of us has a plan, no one knows how to move forward and we're taking it each day, you know, one step at a time.
Okay. At the end of this interview, I'm gonna ask how your parents feel about BYU as an institution, but before we get to that point, Hey fam, are you lgbtq plus and looking to increase your impact on the world? Pride and Joy Foundation hosts two programs a year to help make that happen. Keynote Queers is a public speaking program just for our family and outright authors is a path to publishing program for [00:19:00] lgbtq plus authors of non-fiction books.
Both are designed to get your voice and your power into our world. Check them out on our website or in the show notes out of Queeriosity.com. Let's lay again some groundwork for our audience. BYU has a specific rule around being LGBTQ plus. Will you translate that rule for us? Yeah, essentially, so the honor code is the set of rules that all the students are supposed to follow and it helps them be, I guess, a honorable and verist student is the thought.
And in that is what they have. Same sex attraction, that's like the section it's under, I think. And it says that, well, they changed it. It used to say there's no, um, same sex dating or homosexual behavior. Right now what it says is same sex like attraction or like homosexual behavior can't lead to eternal marriage and therefore it doesn't follow [00:20:00] underline with the honor code guidelines.
That's what we're given.
If the honor code office determined that you were not abiding by that interestingly worded rule, what would be the ramification? I think it depends on who you talk to. And this is actually interesting cause I just had a talk with the honor code, not for me, but so that I could go and understand what it looks like if you are reported.
And from what I understand, it's, it's at the beginning, it's a warning, right? You're not gonna be immediately expelled or suspended. It's when things stock up. If you're like, oh, I'm dating. Um, same. Someone of it like, it's a, it's a homosexual relationship and I'm having sex and this, that's when it starts getting a little bit unclear as to what direction the honor code will take.
But as far as I like, am understanding, and I could be wrong, but this is what I understand is if you're just reported for just having, like participating [00:21:00] a homosexual behavior as they say, then it will be a warning. Depending on how severe it is. It's not super clear. I think it depends a little bit on the situation in the person, which is hard, but that's how I understand it.
I'm taking a minute to recognize the fact that like my body is responding to this and like intense space, like this is, you're my kids' age, like you are. You weren't in the fire. Um, so let's focus on that. How do you feel about attending a university that has that rule in those consequences? I think it's important to recognize that it's hard.
Like I don't think I ever want to downplay the seriousness of it sometimes, right? Yeah. Honestly, like it's just hard. It's hard and it takes a lot of strength to [00:22:00] not turn this into an us versus them situation, but to see them as people, people doing their best under an a institution and a religion that isn't always designed to support people like us.
So, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's hard. It can be as simple and as complicated as that. Yeah. So I would like to address the, the question that most people have, which is, Why would you be at byu? And so let me answer with how I, what I tell people and then please fill in with your own information. Okay. So these kids often know that they're LGBTQ plus know that this rule exists and still choose to go to byu.
And there's a lot of different reasons. One can be that it's such a family or cultural tradition that some parents will not help support your education unless you are going to BYU or another church sponsored school. Again, even if finances aren't even a part of it, just having that [00:23:00] cultural and familial expectation that if you can get into byu, you're kind of expected to go.
But there's also, let's be like really clear Mormons ra and they say this themselves. A peculiar people like people don't get you the way that other Mormons get you, no matter where you are in your belief spectrum. And so I can imagine the amount of support, like really deeply authentic support that comes from other queer Mormon students.
And I see you organizing that in an absolutely incredible way. But before we go into that, would you add anything else as to why someone like you would choose to go to b byu? Yeah. I think huge part finances, right? Like you said, some people, it's their parents won't pay for their college. For me, it's my, my parents aren't paying for any of my college.
So in order for me to afford college in a smart way without a lot of debt, I had to choose a college that [00:24:00] is cheaper. And because it's subsidized for, um, members, like that was huge to me. And that impacted my decision a lot. And the other thing is, is byu, despite all of its weird policies and, and stuff, they do, like, they have a really good education system for the most part.
Like they are well known for having like, Good professors and when you come out with that degree, like I don't think a lot of people argue that you're not getting a good education, even if it has a few little quirks in it. Right. So I think that was important to me because my major, um, is like known as like a good one here.
So I think that was important. And yeah, I think this one, it might, I don't know if this reaches out to other people or if they, if anyone's ever thought this, but I was worried that my par, I don't want my parents to worry about me. I'm an independent person and I really wanted them to feel like they could relax, especially after coming out to 'em.
Cuz I was always like the perfect oldest child, so they never had to worry. I don't feel like, and when I came out to [00:25:00] 'em, I think they had a lot of worry and so I just wanted to like, I don't know, put them at ease. Like know I'm headed to a church school and I guess make them proud. Yeah. Yeah. We all wanna feel that, that our parents are proud of us.
No matter who we are or how we identify, we, we all have that need. I appreciate that. I do have a question though, like talking about how it's a good school, it's well regarded. I wanna ask this question to my kids and I can't, and so I'm gonna ask it to you. Okay. Yeah. Frankly, how do you feel about the fact that BYU is gonna be under resume for the rest of your life?
That's, that's definitely something I considered because we do have a lot of people reach out and like, I, I guess I've heard recently a lot of students who are trying to get into grad schools and these interviewers will point blank ask them like, why are you at byu? Are you homophobic? Are you racist?
Are you sexist? Like this is, [00:26:00] this is not what byu Yeah. This is what they're being looked out for now. And yes, it's, yes, it's, it's, yeah, it's a little bit embarrassing and I am worried about how it'll come up, but at the same time, I think if I can come back and explain like, this is. This is a place where I felt like I could continue my growth.
And also, I know we haven't talked about this, but I'm part of RaYnbow Collective, so activism is an important part of my life right now. And in this space, like a lot of activism is needed. And so I'm just hoping that like people will take the time to know me and not stereotype me just because I might be Mormon or because I went to BYU and instead listen to my story.
Absolutely. Uh, it's definitely gonna differentiate you. There's no doubt about it. Yeah. And, and you have a really great way to leverage that into something that's positive, right? Yeah. About differentiation to be positive and valuable instead of hurting against working against you, which I love that.
Right? And [00:27:00] yes, that's definitely the what I'm hearing as well. So when I'm not working for Pride and Joy Foundation, I run an HR consulting business. Okay. And what I'm hearing from corporate is, These are potential lawsuits. If we hire people that come from a community that is homophobic, transphobic, racist, misogynist, we are inviting a, an employment lawsuit into our company.
Yeah. And so we've decided to stop recruiting there, which is intense for a mom of two kids that are going there to get a career. Right. I'm sure. Right. And do you care that conversation on campus at all? No, I, as far as I know, like people, well maybe I'm not in the right spaces, but I don't think people realize that that's what BYU is being viewed as now.
Cuz we've had lots of companies come to us and say like, Hey, like we don't wanna recruit from greater BYU anymore. We want to specifically hire queer students at these schools because we know that they're resilient and that [00:28:00] they carry that little bit of nuance that we want in our companies. Holy cow.
Oh my goodness. That blows my mind a little bit. That brings nuance to the conversation. It is a little, little disappointing to hear that. Like, for example, I used to work for the office that brought in those recruiters, right? I used to organize the interviews that happened at the Tanner building with the business schools.
Okay. Like is any of that staff talking about the fact that the number of companies recruiting has gone down by a lot? Like how is the daily universe, the student newspaper, not reporting on that fact? You know what I mean? Like Yeah. For reals. Ooh. Okay. So let's talk about that activism. What is RaYnbow Collective and what's happening with the queer student community at byu?
Yeah. So RaYnbow Collective is a non-profit, um, based out of Provo. And our, our main thing is we believe that people [00:29:00] deserve to belong. They deserve a space at the table. And we believe in just a deep kindness, right? That we're not always shown. And so we connect queer b BYU students to resources. We're kind of like a signpost per se.
So like let's say you need subsidized therapy, right? We've got flourish and celebrate, or you need funds to transfer out of B BYU cuz you no longer feel safe, right? You got the out foundation. You need just a community. We throw events, right? So we really do our best to be like, there is, there is a community waiting for you that supports you outside of byu.
How can we help you wherever you are Spiritually. Physically, right? Mentally in the space you are right now. How can we help? That's so great that BYU administration allows that kind of organization to exist on campus and reach out to students. That's what happens, right? You would hope. No, actually we are not sanctioned.
We're our own thing and we do our very best. And actually right now I [00:30:00] am in the middle of meeting with, um, BYU administration all over campus. And the success rate is a little bit lower than hooked actually. I get a lot of emails saying, no thanks. I would not like to meet with you. It is what it is. How do you reach the students?
How do, how did they know that you exist? So a lot of it is through social media, right? That's how a lot of the queer community connects. So we do a lot of that. We do a lot of, when we have events, we do a lot of flyers. We do our best to reach out to students just by word of mouth. And I think that the queer community at BYU is now so tight because we have had to be that we all know each other.
And so word spreads really fast. Yeah. Doby, it's, it's a lot of social media to be honest. Yeah. I mean that's, that's the way we do it now. Right, right. All grassroots movements have to have a presence there and I'm so glad you have a presence there and that is how we found each other. But before I go to that story, I feel like you recently [00:31:00] had a campus day that was inclusive.
How did that go? Tell us about that. Yeah. RaYnbow Day. So what RaYnbow Day is, is it's a little bit of a, I think what we say now is celebration, but also a little bit of a memorial towards when the honor code was changed back in 2020, which was when they took out the whole like same sex attraction section of the honor code.
And everyone thought, oh, that's no longer a rule. We can do what we want for two weeks before they clarified it and said, actually no, like homosexual behavior is not allowed. And so every year on March 4th, students on campus and allies across like the world basically wear rainbow in support of students at c e s schools and.
RaYnbow Collective goes and sits out on really close to BYU property, but not on BYU property. And we hand out rainbow stuff and we wear our rainbows. And in the past, the Y on the mountain has been lit in rainbow colors and it's, it's really cool to see. You touched [00:32:00] briefly on an event that happened in 2020 where, and I'll just restate really quickly.
Yeah. The honored code administration went on record as saying that that section of the honor code had been changed and that same sex attraction behavior was no longer explicitly against the honor code. And what I witnessed being a state away and adjacent to the community, to the B Y U community was so many people coming out and taking pictures with their partner kissing on B Y U campus.
And there were staff that came out and there were professors that came out, and it was such a celebratory moment. And two weeks later it was revoked. And from my perspective, again, it felt like a trap. It felt like manipulation. What did it feel like on campus? Yeah, so I wasn't on campus, but I was watching from social media.
I [00:33:00] think, I think you nailed it, right? Like I think people came out thinking that they were safe finally only to have that torn away. And I think it, it hit and, and several years later it is still hitting, right? When I like think about what we were doing yesterday and on Friday, the, the fact that everyone had to go back in the closet and also worry about what they had said in those two weeks and that it wasn't what they thought it was is sad and it's lonely and I wish it didn't have to happen.
I appreciate that. Yeah, that's valid. Not long afterwards, there was an event that happened. Around new student orientation and when it happened, it felt so reminiscent of those exact same feelings. Can you explain that situation and, and how it was felt on campus? Yeah. So REMA collected along with a few other organizations like Cougar Pride Center, um, U S G [00:34:00] A, the foundation, qua Utah.
We all came together and we put together resource pamphlets. And these pamphlets, they have the resources that are provided around Provo area and also like events that were happening and like we used to get involved in that type of thing. And we, they're these small little pamphlets and we are planning on putting them in the packets that each student gets at new student orientation.
Cuz we were like, this is how we're gonna support the queer students. They don't have to come in feeling alone. And we went to 'em and said, can we, can we put these in? And they said no. And we said, what if we pay for an ad space? Because other companies do that, other places do that. And they said, okay, yeah, yeah, we will let you pay for this.
And so we signed a contract. We printed out thousands and thousands of these pamphlets, spent tons and tons of hours like folding them and cutting them out. Had 'em all ready to go. And I think it was the day before new student orientation started, we found out from a third party that they were just being taken out and thrown away, [00:35:00] which obviously broke our contract with B Y U.
And it was frustrating and a little bit of a moment of panic. Cause all of our stuff is being thrown away. Right. And they're not going in the places they should be. Yeah. And and like you said, it a little bit reminded us of when the auto code changed. It's, it's lonely. And we wish that we had the support of the university, and especially in something that we felt like was not against anybody, but just for everybody.
Right. We weren't bashing B by U. We weren't going against any of their rules. We were simply making sure that people knew that they had opportunities to feel like they belonged. And so when those were taken out, it was, it was definitely hard. And we're still giving them out today to people when they ask and we'll give 'em out at our events.
But ultimately, they did not end up in the new student orientation packets like we had hoped. Did b u give you your money back? Um, they did. They did refund us. But honestly, it wasn't about the money and it wasn't about the time we had put in it. [00:36:00] We grateful we got. Yeah. Right. We were grateful, um, that we got that back and yeah.
I think it was about the message it sent to us. Right. We had thought we had made, at least I thought we had made all this progress. Right. I had been watching and I, things are a lot different. They've been changing. The culture at BYU has been changing, um, over the last few years. And so I felt like I could come here.
At least be okay. Like survive, not like feel like I was being attacked on a daily basis, but on day three, these pamphlets were taken out and the message it sent was, you're not welcome. So yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not seen. Right? Right. And we go back to that message of when we can be seen, it lends itself so much to our mental health and Right.
It's hard to not feel like this is a tactic to break down our mental health to, to not allow us to be seen or included, like you said, that is, how do you feel about leading [00:37:00] such an incredible, I don't wanna say fight, but it really is, you are leading this massive organization to create lasting impact in a huge community.
How is that going? I'm, I would be lying if I didn't say I wasn't nervous. I often feel unqualified at 19 years old to be running a nonprofit. Um, but I'm so grateful for the opportunities I've had in this space and that I am able to have a voice and to help others. Yeah. Okay. So part of what RaYnbow Collective does is the social events that connect others.
Mm-hmm. Right? We all know the importance of community and connecting, and that was part of the challenge with Covid was the, our inability to do that. Right. And so now you're all there, you're all on campus. You get to have these activities. Now, [00:38:00] something that our audience might not understand about B Y U is that it's very focused on dating and marriage.
By the time you graduate, if you're not married, that's it literally says something about you, you know, if you're not engaged or getting married, right? Like, And you're graduating. Yeah. It communicates something to the rest of your community. So I just cannot even forget all of the like student secretaries and student staff that I had there, and it didn't matter their gender, it didn't matter their economic status.
Nothing was more important than going on dates and pursuing a relationship to see if this is the person I'm gonna spend eternity with, and if I have a final tomorrow, too bad. So sad. If I have a shift next week that I gotta get covered by someone else, that's what I'm gonna do. Because the number one priority is finding that eternal companion.
What is [00:39:00] it like to be queer in a community like that? Yeah, it's a, it's a little wild. I think it comes up in weird ways. Just, yeah. Like people that I know that are going on dates like every single night of a week, right. Like that is insane to me. Like, does that happen outside of you? I dunno. No, it does not.
No. For that. Yeah. And like different people each night too, I'm like, who is going on that many dates? Like, I don't know. It's crazy. Good for them I guess. I dunno. Um, yeah, it's interesting. And also like, even just like you, you could say it's a cultural thing and it is, but the fact that we have a, like an eternal families like required course to graduate eternal families, like that's insane.
Like we have a whole class dedicated to dating and getting married and, and moving on in that way. I had totally forgotten about that. Yeah. Because let's be [00:40:00] clear, when the Mormon church says eternal family, that is a husband and wife, period. Yes. Well, possibly a husband and multiple wives, but a husband, wife.
In what era you're in. Well, and the fact that men can get sealed in the temple too. As many women as they want. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Wow. Okay. So Gracee, do you date? Do I date? I have been on dates with guys. Yes. Because honestly, I feel bad. Like I'm happy to like, go on one date with you. I'm not trying to lead anyone on.
Um, but it takes a lot of courage to ask someone out. If I was, if I was asking someone out, I would feel bad, um, if someone said no. So I've been on dates, I've said yes to dates. Do I ever let 'em get em further than one date? No. Is that probably mean? I don I feel bad saying no.
That's probably bad. That's probably not like super ethical to be like, yes, I'll go on a day [00:41:00] with you, knowing I'm not attracted to them. But I also just like, it's important like can for them to know that like I'm not against them and I also don't want them to feel bad if I do say no. And then me having to explain to them, like, some of these people might not be safe for me to come out too.
So what do I say? Like, no, I'm not going a date on you. Because of like what, right. Like it's, it's like a lot of times it's not them, it's just that they're not women. So Yeah. Like how do you explain that to someone that might not be a safe space or like, I don't wanna embarrass them. Okay. And that is an issue that exists universally outside of program in the Mormon church?
Oh, for sure. Right. We as women have to take into account every single time a guy hits on us. If, yeah. It is safe to be very, very clear as we would want someone to be with us. Right? Right. We would appreciate someone being really upfront with us, but oftentimes it is not safe for us to do that. It is [00:42:00] shocking the reaction that you get from some men.
It, it's not like, oh, cool. Right? Like for some men, that is an ultimate trigger that we have. Refused them as an entire gender and that they take that very personally and the rage that you can see in their eyes is a little bit shocking. So that's definitely out there for sure. But I can, I can understand why.
The thing is, is that at any other school, you wouldn't be saying no to that many dates. You know what I mean? Like I went to Arizona State, I think I got ass up on the date, like maybe four or five times. Like it just doesn't happen that often. Yeah. But in your environment it really does. Yeah. So much. Yeah.
And luckily less in the last few months, I don't know if I just like give off more gay as I like go more activist people just are like, no thanks. And that's fine with me, but at the beginning for sure. [00:43:00] Yeah. I mean, how often, like in a typical school day, how often are you kinda biting your tongue? Like so many issues come up that they're not even realizing how they sound when they say those words.
Right. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating. Okay, so are you going on any clear dates? Have you asked anyone? Are people asking you like, what is that like? Um, no, because it is important to me to stay within good standing at this school. And I think that dating here would not only put myself at risk, but also put everything I've worked for at risk.
And especially as, um, the new president of RaYnbow Collective, it's important to me to be able to form good working relationships with byu and I think that that's something that would put that at risk. Do you foresee being president of RaYnbow Collective your entire time there, or do you, are you looking at this as like, [00:44:00] okay, I'm gonna put my year in and then I won't be really the representative of the whole community to the administration?
So the idea is a minimum of a year. I mean, it's, it's hard to know what it'll look like, but I can't imagine stepping outside of this space for the foreseeable future. When I do graduate and I pass it on, I would love to still be involved in activism. Um, RaYnbow Collective has a board full of students that have graduated and have moved on from like on campus activities, but are there to help and support and hopefully that's where I end up.
Yeah, I hope so too. I have to say again, from a mom perspective, if you were my kiddo and you were like, I'm gonna spend my college years not dating, that would be really hard for me to hear. Yeah. Cause it is an important part of our identity. It's lit for you to date would literally be an act of revolution.
[00:45:00] And so I absolutely understand why you don't. I really do. So from that, that perspective, let's go back to your parents. How are they feeling now about you being at by u as an out queer person? I think there are very excited that I'm at a church school where, and I might be speaking for them, I guess, I don't know this for sure, but if I were them I'd be excited because I'm a little bit out of like, I don't know if you would say like bad influences.
Like where if I went to a different school, like I would be like able to do a lot more that maybe doesn't bong line with the standards that they hope I'd stay in. So from that point of view, I think they're really excited that I'm able to stay in this culture and stay within church boundaries. I don't know how they feel about my activism.
I know they're very proud that I am putting in hard work and they recognize that I am helping a lot of people. And also helping myself. I couldn't tell you exactly [00:46:00] how they feel about the activism itself, and I don't know if they know. Yeah, yeah. It's complicated. It is. Anything that's simple. Absolutely right.
Do they feel like you're safe there? I don't know. I think like that was a huge reason why you went, right? Because you wanted them to feel like that you're saved. What do you think now? I, yeah. I think they thought that, I don't know if they still do because of what I share with them, what my life is like here.
Sometimes I think it a little bit makes them nervous, but I don't think that they have a fear that the institution or the church is gonna hurt me unjustly. I think their fear is gonna be, How is it affecting my mental health? How is the community reacting to my activism? Right? Like when we look back at Back to school pride, like there [00:47:00] were strong reactions.
Yeah. Like and scary reactions. And so I think more of that they're worried about other people, not necessarily like how religion or B BYU is, is impacting me here. That makes sense. I'm worried about your mental health. I'll just say that like, well, I'm doing my best. I know you really are. You're killing it.
You're absolutely killing it. Is there affirming mental health support on campus or do you need, do you, if you were seeking that out, would you need to find like Flourish or one of those other organizations? Yeah, they have caps, which is, what do I use like Therapy Center is, they do have groups that meet like group therapy for like Same Sex Attracted people is I think what they label it as.
And you are able to go meet with a therapist and talk with them about that. This is my personal opinion and no shade on byu. I have a hard time trusting [00:48:00] people who are employed by BYU because I know that there is only so much they can do. And I also know under HIPAA and ethics codes, they can't say anything.
But I just, I'm cautious. I'm cautious to a phone, right? So I, I'm in therapy, um, and I actually, I go to celebrate and I love them. They're incredible. But there are resources on campus and I know students who go and they find it works for them. I don't think it would work for me, especially in the space I am, how high I am up in activism.
I will never forget. An integral part of my story was that we were at B Y U, my husband was going to school. We had already had one kid. Cuz that's what you do, right? Right. And we lived in Wout, which is the Okay. One of the married student housing. Places because there's tons of married students with kids.
Right. And so they provide a, a really cheap, an affordable place to live near campus. Yes. And I was really struggling. [00:49:00] I was really struggling in our marriage and our bishop said, you know what, you can get free counseling cuz it was quickly determined that it was a me problem, not a we problem. Right. And so, um, Bishop said, free counseling on campus, go get it.
And so I signed up and it was a student therapist essentially who was being right. Supervised by someone else. And I probably went for six months and we could never really get down to the heart of it. Nothing really changed. And I think about that young student therapist often because I'm doing a lot of therapy now and it's very clear that how.
A non-biased therapist would've responded to what I brought to the table would've been like, okay, well let's talk about what, who you've been attracted to in the past. Let's talk about what you like in intimacy. Right. And the response would've been, I don't [00:50:00] know, because I'm not allowed to masturbate.
Right. And that's where a student therapist couldn't even go there. Right. Couldn't go anywhere close to that, and therefore could not help me at all. And so when we talk about me not coming out until I'm 38 years old with four kids after 17 year marriage. Right. There's, there's a reason. Mm-hmm. Because my community didn't, my community and its culture did not have space for that conversation in a very intentional way.
Yeah. I'm so grateful that you know who you are at this age. I feel like you have this massive headstart, which I love. Do you feel like that, or is, what is your perspective of that? Yeah, I don't, I think I've just been really blessed to be in spaces where I am able to find what is important to me and grow that.
Yeah. And your identity is [00:51:00] important to you? Yeah, huge, huge part of me. Like they always say like, don't make it all of you. Right? Like, don't, don't make your, uh, orientation, everything. But if I had to throw out like how important it's to me, like it's right next to like my relationship with God, like right there next to it.
I think it's when you, when you talk about your identity in the church too, like, they're like, oh, you're a child of God. And like, well, you know, I'm, I'm a lesbian, I'm a gay woman. Like, that's important to me. That's impacted my experiences and has led me to where I am today. So how could I say it's not important?
Absolutely. And let's talk about that. How is your relationship with God? It depends on the day, but not because he's abandoned me or because I've ever felt like he's not doing what's best for me. But because I sometimes question whether the, the Mormon God is the one that I believe in or that [00:52:00] I want to believe in, I, I want to believe in, and I do believe in a God that is big enough for everyone and big enough for me and big enough to hold all the nuances that the world has and, and not fit him in a box that sometimes we do when we're talking in religion and especially in Mormonism.
I feel like sometimes we, we talk about God and say, well, he likes this, he does this. He thinks this well. Like, how do you know that? Like you're speaking to the general public. I'm super glad that you're able to find that. But anything that I. Firmly stand on with God has been delivered through personal revelation and what he's told me.
So yeah, it, it's, it's shaky some days, but I, I think I'm not having a crisis of faith. I am having a crisis of trust in institutions that are supposed to build my faith. I love that distinction. I know when people ask me that question when I'm being, um, interviewed on podcasts like this, for me it is, my spirituality is deeper than it has ever been.[00:53:00]
Yeah. My religious practice is non-existent. And, and those don't have to be mutually excu exclusive. There's nuance to both of those. Right. And I love that. Yeah. So I remember when I was active, and I believe it was 2015, maybe 17, when I was a believing actively working Mormon member, there was a policy that was passed that it was actually leaked to the public first, and then it was broadcast officially.
That children of LGBTQ plus parents could not be baptized and could not go on a mission. And that rocked the world for a lot of people. And it didn't for me, cuz of course, like my, or I was, I was so not aware of anything about myself. Um, but I also jumped through these mental gymnastic hoops of, well that's best for the children.
We wouldn't want children of gay parents to be baptized because then we'd be expecting them to [00:54:00] believe that their parents are not gonna go to heaven. And that causes this dissonance, right? And so why would we wanna do that to kids? And so I justified and justified and justified why the leadership would've done that.
And then we lost thousands of lives as a repercussion of that rule because that was very clearly telling the membership that this is not okay. And I remember. Before that rule was rolled back and it was mm-hmm. With no accountability to the lives that it had harmed. But before it was rolled back, my youngest was about to turn eight.
I was just coming to grips with who I was, and I decided I cannot come out yet because she needs to get baptized. I was still there. Like I, I wasn't gonna be the reason that my daughter couldn't get into heaven. That's what I told myself. Right. And now I have some distance and I have some objectivity, and of course I [00:55:00] realize that had nothing to do with me.
Right. Like whether my daughter Right. Heaven. Right. Like, that's all, that's all I think. But what I'm watching now play out in real time is the members of the Mormon church, the believing members. Jumping through the same hoops when the story broke last week, that the Mormon church had paid 32 billion worth of timing income from the IRS and not paid taxes on it, 32 billion.
And I'm watching the members jump through similar hoops. Let's justify, justify, justify why this is okay. Right. What are you seeing happen on B BYU campus on that topic? I guess I haven't seen a, a lot of talk, and especially not in my classes, it's never come up, but I think you're correct in saying that.
I would say most of 'em are justifying it, that they're saying religious freedom or whatever they might claim, and I think it should, I think it should rock people in the same way that the other policy change [00:56:00] rocked people. I think that it's important to recognize that some times we, like, as institutions and religions have failings and I, and I wish there were apologies with those failings.
And I wish that we didn't justify it as, as a people and as members justify it because sometimes wrong is just wrong. It sure is. It sure is. Wow. Wow. We went a lot of places and our time is up, but Gracee, wow. Okay. I have one last question, two last questions. First I'm gonna ask how can our audience like reach out and how can they support and how can they connect?
What are the best avenues? So we have our Instagram, that's where we're most active. It's RaYnbow with a y dot collective. Um, that's our Instagram. We also have a Twitter that's the same. And um, if you look us up on Facebook, and then our website is RaYnbow collective.org and that's where you can find all of our events, all of our information about us if you're so inclined.
We [00:57:00] have donation spots or ways to volunteer, but yeah, that's where you can find us. And it's, yeah, it's RaYnbow With a Y, RaYnbow with a y collective. We will definitely have the links in the show notes. And now for the last question. Gracee, if you could speak to the you of five years ago, what would you say to her?
I would say it's okay, and maybe that's all that would need to be said, because I think explaining all the reasons why it would be okay would be a waste. Because I think it was important for me to discover all those reasons myself and not be told why it's okay, but to find it. But to know that there is a place for me and that I can help make a place for others and to just strengthen my belief in shared humanity.
It was important and is important. So yeah, I just, I would five years, like if five years in the past, I would tell her it's, it's okay and it's going to be okay. [00:58:00] Beautiful. And let me speak for a future you and tell you it's okay. Whatever the battles you're fighting today. It's, it's okay and it's gonna be okay.
Thank you so much for being here with us. We're so excited to promote this episode and get the word out about Revoke Collective. Thank you. I appreciate you. Thank you. All right. They have it. Gracee Purcell, my friends. What a story, what a life she is creating for herself. All right, so tell me what struck you in this interview?
What aha moments did you have for me? I think one that stands out was realizing how incredible it is to be seen, especially by those closest to you truly seen, and then affirmed and then protected. It's so vitally important to find that for ourselves and to provide that for others. I'm not gonna lie, as a mom of kids her [00:59:00] age, it was hard to hear about some of the things that she's experiencing.
I want her college years to be full of some of the romance and joy that comes from living your life to the fullest before you get tied down with a career in kids and all the rest of it, right? I want the administration to see in an email from this obviously brilliant young woman and be eager to meet with her instead of refusing to acknowledge her based on her identity.
All right. The links to connect with RaYnbow Collective are in our show notes, get to know them, and the work they are doing to protect our next generation of queer leaders. I love following greasy online. Strongly recommend 10 out of 10. This is really an incredible episode to share with your community.
It's a unique take and a unique story on an age old tale. There are a lot of parents and a lot of current students that need to hear this story. Please subscribe and share it on your social media because you [01:00:00] never know how far it will go. I am your host, Elena Joy, and thank you for being with us today.
Until next time, be good to yourselves, fam. I appreciate you.