[Elena Intro]
Welcome to Out of Queeriosity. Consider us your field guide for queer pride. You will hear from the best of the best in terms of queer business leaders, queer relationship experts, the activists working to protect us all, and everyday LGBTQ+ people that have figured a few things out so you don't have to. Out of Queeriosity is brought to you by the Pride and Joy Foundation. Let's do this.
[Elena episode intro]
Hey, fam. So about a year ago, Pride and Joy Foundation began this survey to find out what employee benefits could a company offer that would have the biggest impact on LGBTQ+ families. We've had almost 300 people respond. About 70% identify as LGBTQ+ themselves, and about 30% identify as family members. The number one response so far, by a longshot, is extensive mental health coverage, which employers weren't surprised to hear. But often the response I hear is, well, we offer that and no one uses it. Well, as we know, as LGBTQ+ people, it's often quite challenging to find someone in mental health who is in our state, covered by our plan, and a part of our community. Or even, obviously, affirming of our community. Seeking mental health support is vulnerable, and the barriers of access can feel huge. So after we figure out the logistics of how to find support, and how we're going to pay for it, finding a therapist who gets us is another monumental milestone, one that our next guest in his black owned company, Therify has figured out. Therify provides personalized mental health resources to help companies improve employee satisfaction, well being and belonging. James has previously led partnerships with digital news organizations at Facebook. And prior to Facebook, he worked on the enterprise sales team at Envision, a venture backed product design platform. James received a BA from Howard University and an MBA from Vanderbilt. So how can the everyday employee access truly inclusive mental health care? Let's find out.
[Elena]
So welcome, James, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. And, can I be real? This is one of the first times that we are doing an interview with a business owner that is not LGBTQ. So I’m really excited to bring your perspective because I think it's really important. Quite a few of our listeners and our audience members are straight family members or straight loved ones of LGBTQ people. And they are here to learn how they can best support, as well as, we have a huge audience of business leaders that are trying to become more inclusive business leaders. And that's why I'm so excited to have you on here. Because I think you can really speak to that need of, how do we develop that inclusive leadership? So tell me about Therify, what is it? And what's the impact on the world?
[James]
Sure. So first, just thank you for having me. I'm absolutely honored to be here. Thank you for welcoming an ally into the conversation. And I think this is going to be super fruitful and productive. And so, Therify is an inclusive mental health benefit for companies. We partner with employers to connect employees and their families, with providers and therapists from similar backgrounds, and with shared experiences. Our mission is to maximize the well being of humanity by removing barriers to quality care, especially within underserved communities around the world. And this company is totally inspired by my personal mental health journey as a Black man in America. And, you know, going through a really tough time with anxiety and depression. A lot of it was driven by losing my dad to cancer at a young age. And, you know, I remember kind of bottling up feelings for a lot of my life and, you know, coming to a point where I couldn't keep those feelings in anymore. And so, at that time, I was like, therapy? I'm not going to therapy, you know. Just totally overtaken by the stigma. And I remember finally mustering up the courage to go, right? It's like, okay, I'm gonna do it. And I'm having so much trouble, right? One being: at the time I was, you know, I’d come out of two years of business school and, you know, I just come out of stock trying to start my first company. And so I didn't have a lot of money. I couldn't really afford it. And then two: just the process of finding providers who really understood the nuances of my identity, and my cultural experience was a struggle, right. And I think what really got me was that I had so many friends, so many family members who wanted the same thing, right? Desperately needed care and weren't able to get it. So I think something in me, something entrepreneurial, just wanted to do something about it.
[Elena]
Oh, my gosh, I love it. I love that because it mirrors the journey for so many of us, right? So often we get to a point where we're in crisis. And that's when we need the care. And that's when it's the most hard to access the care, right? Because that, like you said, the barriers are high, they are. And so when we're in crisis mode, it's almost impossible for our brain to figure out, how do I remove those barriers for myself? And that's when we need to help the most.
[James]
Right? Especially when you've mustered up that courage, finally, and then you hit a roadblock? You're like, what the heck, I just, you know, it's so true.
[Elena]
And what do you think the value is there of inclusive mental health support? Because I think there is a feeling, there's a feeling, definitely of “in business, sexuality doesn't play a role in business”. Right? So does what does it take for marginalized identities to find that inclusive healthcare? And is there really a place for it?
[James]
Yes, I mean, there has to be a place for it, right? I think, as people, as human beings, we feel, me and you, feel like we have a moral obligation to make sure that folks are supported in a way that allows them to get to a positive outcome, right? The way I kind of define inclusive mental health care is a system in which everyone, regardless of their identity, has an equal opportunity to: one, access to care that is a good fit for them; but two, to achieve a positive outcome. Right? And so when you kind of translate that into the corporate and business world, one of the things that's really important to realize is that, you know, employees from marginalized backgrounds are more likely to leave their jobs for mental health reasons, we're more likely to have our mental health, right, impacted by our jobs. Yeah, so I think there's been a lot of work indeed, in kind of the space, the D-E-I space was good. But I think a lot of that focus to date has been focused on the “D”, right. And on the recruitment piece. Now, I think we have a really big opportunity to create an infrastructure, right? So that once you get these employees in the door, they actually have support that is tailored to their specific identities.
[Elena]
Speaking my language, yes.
[James]
It is it, and you know, the average kind of utilization rate of a corporate mental health benefit is like less than 10%. Our hypothesis as a company was, if you tailor specifically a mental health solution to the identities of the employees that you're serving, so that they can see themselves in it, then they will actually use it more. And as a result, they will be healthier, they will be more productive, and they'll be happier.
[Elena]
They’ll be engaged..
[James]
Right, right. And so, but you know, that's the challenge, right? Like, in my previous corporate roles, I remember trying to use, you know, these big fancy mental health benefits and not seeing myself in them, right. And so I just kind of suffered in silence until I found another option.
[Elena]
I totally hear that. And what I love is that our society is moving to this point where you can't just say you have a diversity statement, right? Like, you can't just point to a page on your website and say, “See, we're diverse!” , like people are looking for the receipts. They want to see, like, who's in leadership, what kind of training has leadership had, right? They want to see the actual direction of the diversity and when a company can show a person, “Yes, we are asking for diversity hires, and this is how we're going to support them.”
[James]
Right.
[Elena]
It's not just a blanket solution that we're looking for. This is like an individualized, inclusive mental health support system. Infrastructure, like you said.
[James]
Right. Yeah. And look, it's a win-win situation because it's going to lead to positive business outcomes as well. And so and so for companies there's absolutely an ROI that I think people are starting to realize, but you know, it's gonna take us a little time to really get there.
[Elena]
And that's why I was so excited to talk to you because we, the Pride and Joy Foundation, put up this survey, right. And we've had about 300 people respond to it. Most are in the communities, some are allies or family members. And we asked them, “what is the most impactful benefit a company can offer to you?” And by far and away, by far and away, it was extensive mental health coverage. That is what people need right now. And how our company is able to respond to that because the traditional systems are not working, like you pointed out, they just aren't. We can't find ourselves in them. And when you look at our upcoming workforce, when you look at Gen Z, we have a study that we've signed off on, and Gen Z is identifying as LGBTQ, 30 to 33% of them. That is one in three of our future workforce are identifying as LGBTQ! Talk about the need for inclusive mental health support for reals.
[James]
I mean, look, the companies that 10 years from now are going to be the places where everyone wants to work, right? It's going to be the company. So we're taking these issues seriously, right? Your point, you know, this generation, especially Gen Z, one, right? They're more open to the dialogue and the conversation around mental health. But also from an identity perspective. 33%, right? Versus identifying as LGBTQ plus. And so I think any HR team should be thinking about this.
[Elena]
Big time, and you're offering them like a one and done solution, which I think is amazing. So tell me, like, really break it down for our audience. How does this work?
[James]
Yeah. And so it's a couple of things, right, our approach is really to kind of meet people where they are, right. And so I think, within the world of mental health, the idea of one- to- one kind of individual therapy has had a monopoly on the idea. So if you think, “I need mental support”, you're thinking one-to-one therapy, right? And so we do offer that, but we also have a few other solutions. And so let me start with the one-to-one piece. I think, for those people who are ready to take that step, we've very intentionally built the most diverse provider network in the industry. And so, over 50% of our providers identify as people of color, 20% identify as LGBTQ+. And so basically, all you gotta do is take a quick self assessment, where we can understand a little bit more about your presenting symptoms, your insurance, where you're located, and then any demographic preferences that you have, right. So you can specifically say, I'm looking for a provider who is LGBTQ+ affirming, or someone who's a Black woman, or someone who is South Asian and understands South Asian family dynamics, right, we will do all of the work for you and put those options in front of you. And all you gotta do is pick who you want to meet with, right, done. And so we basically remove all of the friction out of that process, right. And then for those who know, they need support, right? I had a period in my mental health journey where I was like, “I'm messed up”, but I'm not quite ready. You know, to sit down in front of this therapist, we have a group oriented model called Community Sessions, right. And so Community Sessions are group-oriented kind of weekly sessions led by a licensed clinician on a particular mental health topic. And the cool thing about Community Sessions is that you can join anonymously. So if you are still kind of impacted by the stigma, or you're like, is my boss going to be here? We have this other option for you. And the thing I love about community sessions is that it becomes an on ramp, right? To start the dialogue, to get involved in the conversation, especially within marginalized communities where the stigma is so strong, right. And so I think they have a unique way of making care more accessible to marginalized folks.
[Elena]
I love it. And, to me the benefit, The other benefit to that is something that so many of us are struggling with is this feeling of isolation. And whether that's physically being isolated or socially being isolated, or spiritually being isolated, right? To come together as a group and sit in community. I personally have seen the power of that, like, I frankly use my masterminds for that, right. Like that is who I want to sit and be with and be surrounded by as other people who are seeking support and I love to offer that and I love to receive it. It means so much. I love that you're offering that as part of your packages. So okay, so a company signs up with you. And then you get access to being able to do this survey essentially to find a one-on-one option, as well as you get access to monthly group sessions. Is that accurate?
[James]
Weekly, weekly group sessions. Yeah.
[Elena]
Oh…?!
[James]
Yep. Every week.
[Elena]
Okay, but you brought up something that made me like pause. How often does it happen where there might be, like, people on the same team are showing up to the same group sessions?
[James]
Oh, yeah, it's common. But that's why anonymity is so important. The way that these work is that by default, you are anonymous in the session. And so, but we also have ways for people to interact. So you can ask a question anonymously, you can share a comment anonymously, right? You have the option, if you want,to be brought on screen and be seen and heard. But you can still interact in that session without anyone actually knowing that it's you. And so that has created a very powerful kind of experience for, you know, the folks who just aren't ready to talk openly about what they might be experiencing, but they know they need something.
[Elena]
Okay, another question that I might not have prepared you for sorry. But it did come to me how many of your companies as of now, you know, you're starting out, but you'd have some you've got some big names working with you. Yeah. How many of your companies that have signed on so far, are offering this benefit solely to their employees, or to their employees and employee’s Immediate family?
[James]
Yep. So we offer our services to the employees and their family members, right. So that's across all of our customers.
[Elena]
Holy crap.
[James]
Yeah, so your immediate dependents can access Therify services. So for example, one of the things we do in our arrangements with a lot of our customers is we cover a certain number of free sessions, right? So you might get six to ten free sessions. But if you want to, you can, you know, give those sessions to your spouse or to a dependent, right. And so we realized that, you know, this is much bigger than the individual person, right? We all are also impacted by those around us and our loved ones. And so it was kind of tough for us to say, “Well, only you can use this, but no one in your family can.” And so that's just baked into to our offering,
[Elena]
I can't tell you how much I love that. I mean, I know that my daughter and I went through a pretty rough patch during COVID. And that's when we started family therapy, and it changed so much, and therefore it impacted my work. And then just recently, my girlfriend and I have started couples therapy. And we've only had like, I don't know, two or three sessions, but it has changed so much. It's absolutely incredible. When you can find a provider that has a background. So the provider that we found is LGBTQ and has a background with the Mormon Church, which I came from. And there's so much idiosyncrasies, there's so much nuance, and there's so much like, just language. Like I can drop, “she was my visiting teacher”, and this woman knows exactly what I mean, no one else in the world would know what that means.
[James]
Exactly. And it means a lot.
[Elena]
But she does and it means so much to me.
[James]
I'll tell you, I love to hear that from you. I'm so happy that you've had that experience where you just found someone who gets you, right, like you're gonna have the reason you're having a positive outcome in that experience is because of that, right? And, you know, I just spoke to one of our members, not too long ago, and he was basically telling a story of how him and his girlfriend, were just going through it at the beginning of the pandemic, right. Things weren't working out. And he was scared. Because he's like, I want to marry this, girl, right? But I don't want to lose her in the pandemic. And so his girlfriend basically said, you know, if you want this thing to continue, we need to see a therapist, but you need to find it. And it needs to be a Black woman who understands our Black relationship. Right?
[Elena]
Wow, That was very clear boundaries.
[James]
Right? So he goes to his companies, like, you know, I need to find someone, what do you have for me? They're like, we have this platform called Therify. All you gotta do is tell them what you're looking for. And they'll help you match with a Black woman therapist. And so he was able to get matched in less than a day. Him and his girlfriend started seeing this therapist in California. And three weeks later, he was like, Therify changed my life, right, like my girlfriend and I are just on cloud nine.
[Elena]
Well, you made him look good. You made him look real good.
[James]
I know and what really struck me though he was like, you know, it has become just part of our regular routine. He was like, It's as easy and normal as going for a morning walk. And I was like, wow, like, what if- what if all 7 billion people on this planet felt that seeking support was really as easy and normal as going for a morning walk, right? Like, that's the world that we're trying to create here.
[Elena]
Talk about life changing. holy moly, on an individual level and a universal level. That's incredible. Okay, so companies, so if someone listening to this says, holy crap, I want to have access to this. And they go to their company, what did they say? How does that process work?
[James]
Yes. So the best thing they can do is go to our website. Copy the link, right? And take it to whoever is responsible for benefits within the company. Another party to start with within the company, would be the DEI team, if there is a DEI, right?
[Elena]
Right, And if they've been given any power to enact any change whatsoever, yeah, right.
[James]
And I think it's as simple as going to whoever's in charge on either side, and saying, look, you know, vulnerably, this would be really helpful for me, right? There's power in me having access to resources that I can see myself in and where I can actually get to a positive outcome in my care. And then encouraging that leader to go to our website and set up a meeting set up. So that we can talk about bringing bring the resource into the company.
[Elena]
That is not hard. That's really easy. Thank you for making that so easy to talk about removing barriers, right? Like that's, that's super easy. So what about if we have LGBTQ +mental health practitioners that want to be a part of this? Right? What do they do?
[James]
Yeah, so you do one of two things, you can either contact me directly, my email address is [email protected], James, Edward, Mary, J-E-M at therify dot co, or you can go directly to our website, therify dot co slash providers, and there's a provider application right there. You can fill out the application, and we will reach out to you directly to set up a phone call and talk about what the onboarding process looks like.
[Elena]
Perfect. And we'll make sure all that information is in the show notes, because that is valuable, good stuff. I know, we have so many practitioners that are out there, but they're also struggling to make sure that they're meeting the clients where they are and getting access, making sure that the clients know that they have access to them. And in an affordable and easier way.
[James]
Yeah, right. It's such a win-win, right, for the providers as well and giving them the opportunity to serve and to treat the clients that they're so passionate about.
[Elena]
Absolutely. I love it. So I think just one last thought here. If we're gonna take this way down to the granular level, right, there are going to be people saying, okay, this is a queer podcast, from a queer nonprofit, having a straight man on their show. What is it about you and what you want to bring to the community that makes this authentic and not performative? Let's get right to the heart of the issue. Are you just trying to make sure that there's queer money that's included in this network? Or is there something more personal about it for you?
[James]
Yeah, I mean, this is it. This is very personal for me. Right? Like I, I don't identify with with the community. But I am an ally. And the reason that I am an ally is because I know what it feels like to be marginalized in some way, right? Maybe not in the same way, but I know what it feels like to be marginalized. And I know how frustrating it feels to want to get access to something that is tailored to, and really understand you and not being able to get that. Like, it is infuriating, right? Like, really, really, you know, developing the courage, to say that I am going to seek help for myself, right, I'm gonna work on myself. And then not being able to get that? Because you are, quote, unquote, “different” in some way. Right? And you can't find someone who understands your difference. That's infuriating, right? And so, for me, being an ally is much more than just like empathy and understanding. It's about action. And so, what can I do? We're all marginalized in different ways, right? Not all of us, but a lot of us.
[Elena]
Yeah, a lot of us.
[James]
And there’s so much intersectionality that exists there as well. And so I just want to be a source of healing and support for those who have experienced the same level of frustration that I have, whether you're Black or LGBTQ+, or Asian or differently abled, you know, it's, it's personal. So I just appreciate the opportunity to be brought into the conversation. And to hopefully be part of the solution.
[Elena]
I love it. And just to wrap this up, I just feel the need to like, share with our audience that I, it's well known, I am a conversion therapy survivor. And there are literally half a million of us in the United States right now. And we struggle. The Williams Institute validated the fact that 98% of survivors will struggle with lifetime suicidal ideation. And therefore, therapy and quality therapy is integral literally, to our survival. And yet, so many of us, what conversion therapy was for us, was walking into an office, and sitting across from someone, and being incredibly vulnerable about our innermost thoughts and feelings. And that's how we were damaged because that was used against us in an attempt to quote unquote, “fix us”. And yet, the road, the path to recovery to healing to wholeness, is engaging in a very similar situation. And talk about a mind screw, it's so hard to push ourselves to get to seeking help. And so the fact that you are there ready to remove those barriers, and to find that safe person that we can start that road to healing with, no words.
[James]
It's literally like the least we can do for someone who's courageous enough, right? To take that, it's easy to try to push all your issues and your feelings and your emotions down. But to have the courage, right? To take action for yourself. No one should face a barrier there, like you've taken the step, right. And all the infrastructure should be there for you to be able to seek the support and the care that you deserve. And so we got a long way to go. I am you know, I'm not gonna sugarcoat this right?
[Elena]
Well, you're starting a brand new industry, essentially, right, like you are creating inclusive mental health care on a widespread basis that no one else is doing.
[James]
Right. Right. It's category creation in some way. And I know that, you know, we're not going to be the only ones here like, this is going to take a village, you know, and I'm excited to see so many other people focusing on this problem, or are starting to think about it at least. And, hopefully 10 years from now, it'll be a much better world where the process is frictionless, regardless of identity, right? Regardless of our differences, we're all human at the end of the day and deserve quality care.
[Elena]
And I think if we can offer that now, to our younger generations, like Gen Z, like you said, in 10 years, it's gonna be a whole different system if we can help them heal now. What they're gonna do for us in the next decade, mind blowing.
[James]
Yeah. Oh, a better world. It's going to be a better world.
[Elena]
For reals. Well, thank you so much, James. I really appreciate this. This was wonderful. And we're gonna make sure that all the information is in the show notes. Any last words?
[James]
Just just an absolute honor. Change starts with dialogue, right? And so this podcast is so important. And I hope to come back again. I enjoyed it so much.
[Elena]
Thank you so much.
Hey, fam, Did you learn anything new, did this episode spark a new thought. What about you? Do you feel like identity is crucial when considering mental health care access? I'd love to hear your thoughts. So join us on our blog posted James at WWW dot pride and joy foundation dot com forward slash blog or on our Instagram page at Pride Joy Foundation. Thank you so much for joining us. Please consider sharing this episode with anyone in your network who needs to hear. Be good to yourself fam, I appreciate you.
